Thanks, Mr. Snaggle-Tooth, for your lengthy treatise in response to my prior arguments. In it you write:
Ole Ben links a Liberty article by libertarian attorney Timothy Sandefur, ‘n I mus’ say it’s jus’ ‘bout as good as the pro-Unionist argumint kin git. Quite Jaffian it wuz, with the acrid odor of Claremont about it. But that article got picked to pieces in-iss un’, written by anothah libertarian attorney, Stephan Kinsella. (See this here response by Kinsella too.)
Well, in the interest of time, here’s an even better version of Sandefur’s argument (link leads to abstract, from which you can download a PDF). It’s a very well-documented and well-argued essay, and there isn’t much I can add to it in this forum. Some of its salient points: 1) The “compact theory” of the Constitution is weak and doesn’t hold up to careful scrutiny; 2) Unilateral secession is unconstitutional; 3) The South’s actions were not justifiable as a revolution; 4) The Confederate States were primarily motivated by a desire to protect slave property; and 5) Libertarians ascribing all the ills of national government consolidation at the feet of Lincoln and the Civil War have overreached and committed the post hoc fallacy.
Please let me know if there have been any able assertions of this article, because much of what you linked as refutations of the previous article were built on shaky arguments, such as this one:
The Civil War was fought over secession, not slavery. Lincoln himself was quite clear, even vehement, about this central issue; the northern cause acquired its anti-slavery nobility much later. And several slave-holding states seceded only when Lincoln made war on the states that had already seceded.
This is a gross over-simplification that is misleading at best, and lacks the textual documentation Sandefur provides in the substantive essay I linked. All you have to do is read the words of the secessionists themselves, as well as the Confederate Constitution to know how naive an argument this is. The statement about Lincoln’s assertions is a half-truth and seems to involve a failure to read speeches and other statements in political context.
I also think Sandefur’s broad litany of evidence provides a better explanation for accepted antebellum American Constitutional thought than this isolated piece you linked to as so authoritative.
And this source, while making some good individual arguments, makes the misguided assumption that Lincoln attacked the South and not vice versa. I think Sandefur’s latest essay handles most of his objections, but I am willing to go back and chew on what he wrote some more.
Ultimately, trying to determine whether slavery was going to die out anyway and whether the Civil War was a waste / didn’t have to happen, etc., is a counterfactual escapade that can’t be answered concretely. What has to be dealt with is the motivations of human actors in their political contexts and their guiding principles given their best lights. In this sense, as I’ve written before, the Civil War cannot best be understood as a clear schema of good vs. evil. I believe we have successfully distinguished the honorable and dishonorable intentions of individuals from the larger causes which they supported.
And the larger cause of racially-based human chattel slavery cannot nor should not be clinically extricated from the terms of the debate, when so many leading historical actors on both sides during the secession crisis of 1860-61 indeed saw it as such a real and vital issue. No man planned a war that would end up killing 600,000 men. No man could have reasonably acted on the assumption that slavery may or may not die off at some future date from his time. Lincoln and the Republicans sought to halt the expansion of slavery in the Western Territories, and secessionists (led by the slave-owning class) did not want to forfeit the political status that would come by losing the balance of free and slave states. Men of reason and various passions, interests, and loyalties thus acted.
And we have only begun to delve into the depths of this argument.
Mr Bob says
well said. A friend of mine takes the same line as Snag does and I had not heard the other side said very eloquently…until I read this.
Ben says
If you get a chance, you may want to read the Sandefur article I cited. His thesis is well-documented.
This is a HUGE topic – just a drop in a large lake. Glad you found it to be eloquent and helpful.
Snaggle-Tooth Jones says
“If you get a chance, you may want to read the Sandefur article I cited. His thesis is well-documented.”
Ye might not believe it Ben, but ole Snaggle-Tooth, despite his meager 6th-grade edurcation, is well-enough acquainted with the ways of academia. So much so that he knows-att a triumphalistic claim ’bout a “well-documented thesis” don’t nessussairly carry th’ day. See, one question is, “how well”? ‘Nother is, “is the author’s use of the data selective”? Yet ‘nother is, “does the author’s employment of the data fit into a coherent construction of it all”?
I will argue that Claremont case for the Federals’ war fails when these questions come to bar.
“This is a HUGE topic – just a drop in a large lake. Glad you found it to be eloquent and helpful.”
Yep, shore enough. Eighty thousand books written on the War of Nothern Agression if I remember correctly. Complexities aplenty. Ideological passhuns a’flyin’ ever which way. Nuances here, nuances there.
But at the end of the day, the South was right. ‘At’s how it seems t’ me.
Ben says
Thanks, Snaggle-Tooth. I’ll take that as close to a concession speech as I’m going to get. No real refutation of the fundamental points of Sandefur’s thesis – just the “triumphalistic claim” that: “But at the end of the day, the South was right. ‘At’s how it seems t’me.”
Sorry, I go for historical theses that are deeply embedded in primary sources and coherent arguments, not assumptions. The argument about selective data doesn’t hold up well, since the essay deals with several sources raised by opponents and at least explains them coherently in the light of other evidence. Please show me an example from your side that does the same.
“I will argue that Claremont case for the Federals’ war fails when these questions come to bar.”
Please do enlighten me and my readers. I’m waiting with bated breath to see the very foundations of their historical argument completely obliterated by … something or other.
And what was the South right about: Black people are excluded from the Declaration of Independence, and are not equal to whites? That race-based chattel slavery was an institution worth fighting and dying for? Rebellion to preserve human property and to deny individual liberty is just?
Do you really want to align yourself with the antebellum Southern generation that invested itself in the scientific theory that slavery was a positive good, rather than in the Founding generation that believed slavery was a necessary evil?
There’s a lot more than a few nuances here to deal with…. Thanks for commenting.
Snaggle-Tooth Jones says
Sad. Looks like ye followin’ after ye spin master, Hew Hughitt.
I’d a thot that ye’d have figgured out by now that I don’t post substantive replies in yir commints box, jus’ as ye don’t post substantive-uns in mine.
Jus’ to clear it up a bit fir ye, I ain’t conceded nuthin’. Stay tuned to my blog for my reply in full, as use-shul.
But I’ll give ye a hint ’bout whar I’m hedded: bottom line is, Hummel was right about the North’s unnecessary invasion , and Sandefur & Co. cain’t make no compellin’ case ‘ginst secession.
So stay tuned, boy.
Snaggle-Tooth Jones says
Jus’ explainin’ why it’s a’gonna take me longer-iss time:
http://coloradoconfederatarian.squarespace.com/journal/2008/1/20/rebutting-confederate-libertarianism.html